zaterdag 24 december 2011

Militaire mars SSO ~ Dutch Military music of the WSS era






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12 opmerkingen:

  1. Anoniem15 januari 2012 om 20:42

    It's just a modern arrangement and thus of no historical interest. Actually, I do not know a single recording of a 17th or 18th century Dutch march played according to the original scores on period instruments. I don't understand why the Dutch (both the military and classical musicians) are unable or unwilling to make a single CD containing such music. It's a real pity!

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  2. Rampjaar17 januari 2012 om 13:38

    I don't claim to be an expert on late 17th music, but I have found another source who claims the song indeed has it's roots in the late 17th century, but maybe you could enlighten us further?

    And there are more to be found here: http://nwc-scriptorium.org/db/anthems/dutch_marches.html

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    1. Anoniem20 januari 2012 om 18:14

      The march is 17th century indeed, but neither the arrangement nor the instruments used are. Late 17th and 18th century marches more or less would have sounded like chamber music. The ensembles were small, perhaps 6 or 7 musicians at the most. The instruments used for infantry military music around 1670 would have been oboes and shawms and/or fifes and drums (entirely made of wood) in the first instance. Around 1700, bassoons and horns, in the early 18th century sometimes a natural trumpet too, would have been added. Clarinets were not the norm before c. 1750. Only the drummers (not usually the fifers) were considered soldiers. The woodwind players usually were contracted professional musicians. "Turkish" instruments and more brass were introduced only late in the 18th century. Valved instruments were introduced only quite some time after the Napoleonic wars. So what we hear here is a march whose title and melody only would have been familiar to a late 17th century listener, but definitely not the way it has been played.

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  3. Anoniem20 januari 2012 om 23:01

    BTW:

    http://nwc-scriptorium.org/db/anthems/dutch_marches.html

    I've known this list for quite some time. I'd very much like to see this repertoire on a CD dedicated to Dutch military music of the 17th-18th centuries, but played neither on the piano nor as new arrangements for modern instruments. I bet that contemporary scores are hidden somewhere in Dutch or other European archives or libraries. There are so many excellent Dutch musicologists and expert musicians in the field of Baroque and Classical music. It's their job to dig these treasures out or, if really absolutely no original scores can be found, to reconstruct the music according to the musical conventions of the time.

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  4. Rampjaar21 januari 2012 om 14:40

    Thank you! Are you familiar with the book of van Yperen on dutch military music?

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  5. Anoniem21 januari 2012 om 19:37

    Yes, I own that booklet. Unfortunately, this slim volume is just a "teaser", a much too short introduction/survey on Dutch military music and most is dedicated to the post-napoleonic/modern eras. As I said before, it's difficult to understand why nobody in the Netherlands seems to be interested in recording the military music of the 17th to 18th century Dutch Republic as it really was. Perhaps, the military are not really interested in recording authentic early Dutch military music as it looks too much like "ancient music" to them and - as the instrumentation was so different from that of modern times - they cannot use the whole arsenal of their instruments. Chamber musicians, on the other hand, may be deterred by the word "military" despite the fact that, as I mentioned before, 17th and 18th century military music was not at all "military" in our modern sense. The "march", at the time, was just a musical genre like others and it was absolutely normal even for great composers to compose "marches". I think what is needed today is a joint venture between military musicians who are interested in old military music as it really was (rather than in [fake] military music "tradition") on the one hand, and chamber musicians who are not afraid of terms like "military" or "marches", on the other.

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  6. Anoniem21 januari 2012 om 20:08

    Just one more remark:

    Have you noticed that the melody of "British Grenadiers" is quite similar to that of "De jonge Prins van Friesland"? As far as I know the earliest known version of "British Grenadiers" is c.1730 while "De jonge Prins van Friesland" is clearly 17th century. In my opinion, the former song/march may well have been based on the latter. Alternatively, both may have been based on the same earlier (Renaissance) piece of music (a song/dance, or the like).

    The British march known as "Lilliburlero" may also have been of Dutch origin as it is first mentioned in the 1705 collection of French and "foreign" marches by Louis XIV's music librarian André Danican Philidor under the title "Marche du Prince d'Orange". The "Prince d'Orange" is no other than the Dutch Stadhouder Willem III, the later King William III of England, and Philidor says that this march was played when King William entered London in 1689. Occasionally, the march has been attributed to Lully or Purcell but the fact is that the composer remains unknown.

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    1. M. Geerdink-Schaftenaar23 juli 2012 om 22:15

      IMHO I'd rather say "British Grenadiers" was inspired by the older version of the "Wilhelmus". since there are even more similarities than just the first line. The melody of the BG is 1- 1- 2- 3. The Wilhelmus has a similar buildup: 1- 1- 2- 3. Older versions of the Wilhelmus, and even the French tune "Chartres, ou Folles de Prince de Conde" can be found on YouTube. Listen for yourselves!

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  7. Rampjaar22 januari 2012 om 12:12

    Fascinating stuff indeed!

    I agree with you that interest in all things military before WW2 is quite low in the Netherlands and van Yperen's book is a start. Are you by any chance familiar with Dr Henssen's book on trumpeteers in the WIC?

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  8. Anoniem22 januari 2012 om 12:12

    Correction: William entered London in 1688 (18 December), not 1689. Sorry, my mistake. The text in the Philidor collection reads:

    "La Marche du Prince d'Orange quand il fit son Entrée dans Londres Lan 16..."

    So the exact date has been omitted.

    Traditionally, the melody of "Lilliburlerlo" is seen as being of "Irish" origin and of an earlier 17th century date. Actually, there are some serious hints in that direction:

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillibullero

    If so, William perhaps would not have brought the march with him from the Netherlands but only adopted it after his landing from his English supporters. Or the melody was turned into a march right after his landing to serve as a Williamite signature tune.
    However, this is not necessarily so as the melody may well have been of Irish origin but nevertheless known in the Netherlands long before 1688, especially as many mercenary soldiers from the British Isles had fought on the Continent during the late 1500s and early 1600s. Popular melodies of various origins have always been "wandering" through many countries and served there as basis for "new" songs, dances and marches. Just a few thoughts, the question must remain open.

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  9. Anoniem22 januari 2012 om 16:35

    "Dr Henssen's book on trumpeteers in the WIC"

    Do you mean this book?:

    http://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/dissertations/2011-0421-200346/henssen.pdf

    No, I have not known this book before. Thank you very much for the reference! It looks like a great book. I've just downloaded the pdf and hope to be able to read it soon. Looks very interesting indeed. Apparently, it was published only last year? It would be great if such publications could help to arouse the Dutch musicians' interest in the matter. I knew that the combination of trumpets and drums was very popular in the later 16th and throughout the 17th century, especially in the navies. Trumpets and drums appear to have been the best instruments to convey signals at sea, apart from visual signals, of course. However, the more known combination of trumpets and kettledrums (as usual in the cavalry) was also used, as far as I know.

    A handful of fine recorded samples performed on trumpets and drums (rather than on trumpets and kettledrums) can be found on the following CDs which you may know already. They have been composed or arranged by Magnus Thomsen and Hendrich Lübeck, Cesare Bendinelli and Girolamo Fantini:

    http://www.amazon.de/Lo-Sposalizio-Wedding-Venice-Sea/dp/B00000AE0A/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1327244250&sr=1-1

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gabrieli-Venetian-Coronation-1595/dp/B00000DNTZ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327243735&sr=8-1

    http://www.amazon.de/Marriage-England-Spain-Winchester-Kathedrale/dp/B0000C8WXX/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327244003&sr=8-1-spell

    The only Dutch recording of a trumpet and drums tune I know is from the following CD and it is, originally, a French tune (according to the CD-booklet): "Lanterlu". Unfortunately, only the first bars are peformed with trumpet and drum alone...:

    http://www.bravanl.nl/de-muzikale-wereld-van-jan-steen-cd.html

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  10. Rampjaar22 januari 2012 om 22:11

    And there's this:
    http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/sites/strategion/contents/i004562/arma28%20de%20uniformering.pdf

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